I’m smarter than the LA Times…

I’m not bragging, of course. Indeed, I’d be downright embarrassed if that weren’t true.

The central problem with this Times article is the false premise that there even exists anymore a group of “A-List Stars.” Regular readers here know there are few deceased equines I flog more diligently than the fact that we are now living, and have been for a while, in the post-star Hollywood era. Indeed, Hollywood now boasts but one reliable ‘star’*, Will Smith. Smith has, with far greater consistency than anyone else out there right now, opened movies in a big way, and moreover in a variety of genres. I can’t think of anyone else remotely in his class right now.

[*Again, let’s forstall arguments about what constitutes a ‘movie star.’ From a literalist standpoint, if you star in a movie, you are therefore a movie star. In traditional parlance, however, it is somebody whose name in the case guarantees (or close to it) a strong opening weekend, and has a track record of success over the long haul. That is that basis from which I continue my argument here.]

Johnny Depp can also be a name to be reckoned with. However, other than the Jack Sparrow movies, he remains at best a vital component in a savory cinematic stew. Team him up with Tim Burton, and he’s got a fairly good chance of being in a hit. Other than that…not so much.

Still, Depp seems to be one of the important elements in the upcoming Public Enemy which might make it big, but again, it’s the sum of the ingredients, including director Michael Mann (hopefully the Mann of Heat, and not of Miami Vice the Movie) and, to a far less important degree, co-star Christian Bale. Right up there with Depp, though, I would contend the other major element likely to make the film a hit is ’30s chic: The suits, the coats, the hats, the cars, the guns. It was a gorgeous era, and Mann seems likely to exploit it beautifully. On the other hand, this seems like the sort of film that middling reviews can hurt (unlike, say, the generally scathing critiques for Transfomers 2), and the movie’s current Rotten Tomato rating of 63% is far lower than I’d like it to be.

Therefore the article is proceeding from a false position. Look at this key paragraph: “The studios stocked this summer’s release schedule with so-called star vehicles, including “Land of the Lost” with Will Ferrell, “Year One” featuring Jack Black, the comedy “Imagine That” with Eddie Murphy, and Denzel Washington and John Travolta in a remake of “The Taking of Pelham 123.” But rather than igniting ticket sales, the star-studded movies have dramatically underperformed.”

Well, one problem with that list is that not a single person listed is, in a proper sense, a movie star. Hugh Jackman stars in successful movies about…well, Wolverine, really. Therefore he’s generated a box office figure well over a billion dollars. However, he’s not a movie star, he’s a replaceable cog. Don’t get me wrong, Jackman is an entirely serviceable Wolverine, and will remain so until they get another perfectly serviceable actor to play Wolverine some years down the line. That doesn’t make Jackman a movie star, though.

Let’s examine those actors the LA Times mentions. Will Ferrell is a movie star, if you restrict the phrase here to mean “in low budget comedies.” There’s little evidence that Ferrell is, or will be, a breakout movie star. He could be, maybe, but Land of the Lost sounds like a dreadful misfire, a film marketed as a family film while so fearful of chasing away Ferrell’s slob comedy fans that it was apparently packed with women getting their breasts fondled, lots of light profanity and other non-kiddie material. Word quickly got around that if you brought your children to see this, you’d either walk out halfway through or at best sit next to your kid in stony embarrassment.

Oddly, the film Ferrell should have been bright enough to emulate was his first (starring), sweetest and, oh yeah, easily most successful film, Elf. Had Land of the Lost satisfied family audiences nearly half as well as Elf did, it probably would have made twice as much money, at least. Instead, it’s tanked, and there’s a good chance that like many comics before him, Ferrell will see the popularity of his bread and butter movies decrease—the recent Semi-Pro actually made less than his arthouse flick Stranger Than Fiction—while the Land of the Lost debacle will make it that much harder for him to headline any film with a more ambitious budget.

Jack Black? Really? Same thing. Put him in fairly low-budget comedies, and he’s fine. However, this only two ‘hit’ movies were animated films, A Shark’s Tale and (especially) Kung Fu Panda. He was in the fairly successful Tropic Thunder, but as the “guy everyone forgot was in the movie.” (Same thing for his appearance in King Kong.)

Eddie Murphy and John Travolta? Bookends to each other. Both are old enough that they worked in movies back when there really were movie stars. And at various times, both earned that title for themselves in the days of yore. However, those days are gone. Will either of them be in successful films again? Sure, probably. But that will be based on whether the film’s concepts draw audiences more than because they’re coming to see either of those two. In the right movie, their presence might be considered a mild extra inducement to see the movie, like the way Jeff Goldblum goes down easy in flicks like Independence Day or Jurassic Park. But few now look in their papers and say, “Hey, Murphy / Travolta’s got a new movie out! I’m there!”

As for Denzel Washington…good grief.  Folks, the guy is not a movie star. He never has been. He’s like George Clooney in that regard. He’s a good actor, and he just seems like the kind of guy who should be a movie star, or would have been in the old days. However, those days are gone. Washington is a solid presence who can bolster a movie that already has a lot of appeal. However, the stats don’t bear out the idea that he himself draws people to movies. Jack Black has more movies under his belt that crossed the $100,000,000 line, and frankly, that’s not even much of a line these days.

Washington’s most successful movie is American Gangster, co-starring the similar good actor / not really a movie star Russell Crowe. Made for a fairly modest $100 million, the movie was solidly profitable. However, you wouldn’t want Washington to try to carry too many $100 million films. The recent Taking of Pelham One Two Three, co-starring fellow ‘star’ John Travolta, isn’t an example of a bad summer, as the LA Times article indicates, but entirely predictable. At best, the film may have been marginally profitable, like American Gangster. However, it was more likely to crash and burn, and it has.

Since 2000, Washington has starred in Remember the Titans ($115 million), Training Day ($76m), John Q ($72m), Antwone Fisher ($21m), Out of Time ($41m), Man on Fire ($78m), Manchurian Candidate ($65m), Inside Man ($88m), Déjà vu ($65), American Gangster ($130m), Great Debaters ($30m), and The Taking of Pelham One Two Three (currently $53m). Now, that doesn’t cost foreign take and home video, etc. However, remember also that you basically have to take in roughly double what the film cost at the box office to what it cost to make and market before you hit the black.

From that list, it’s pretty clear that you’re in pretty good shape having Denzel Washington star in your movie if you keep the budget in the $30-35 million range. Occasionally you’ll lose a bit of money, but mostly you’ll make some, and once in a while you’ll make an extra nice if not exorbitant amount. Past that, you’ll risk a lot of dough, and except for American Gangster, there’s little indication that you’ll win a $100 million bet on the guy. Pelham has made $58 million worldwide at this point, meaning that the studio will see about $30 million on its investment at this point, and that the film will lose tens of millions of dollars when all is said and done. I’m sorry, that’s not a ‘movie star’ to me.

I guess the bottom line is this: Will Smith is the only guy, or maybe one should say the last guy, who if an agent calls and says “Will Smith wants to make a movie with you” you say yes without asking what kind of movie and how much. That doesn’t mean it’s a sure thing, but it’s a good enough percentage play that you should say yes anyway, until he has a run of films that don’t do so well…as will eventually happen.

Everyone one else, you say first, “What kind of movie, how much, and who’s attached?” If the first two questions are answered satisfactorily, then you greet the name Black or Murphy or Crowe or Jackman or Washington or pretty much any other known actor in Hollywood with a “that sounds great!” If the answer to either of the first two questions is unsatisfactory, though, give it a pass. It’s a sucker bet.

  • P Stroud

    Will Smith and Denzel seem to be really decent guys unlike so many of the truly annoying celebrities.

    Who was it said that the movie industry’s first job is to entertain? That movie makers should keep the personal beliefs, like politics, out of it? It was one of the old Studio heads. Well, it seems too actors and producers and directors and writers have forgotten that good advice. Look at the stream of “relevant” movies that depicted US Troops as a bunch of psychotics in Iraq. The public knows this is BS and ran away in droves. Then too many of these actors behave entirely unprofessionally and get involved in public politics, like anyone cares what some semi-literate clown thinks about economics. These fools alienate half their potential audiences no matter which side of the question they come down on.

    It’s more than the stars. So few screenplay writers can even read Shakespeare any more. The level of writing in movies is so bad compared to the 40s and 50s that one begins to believe that these people are, as a group, semi-literates.

    You add “actors” who behave entirely unprofessionally and screenplays that are so puerile that an 8th grader from 50 years ago could write a better one. Then you put in studios that want blockbusters for every release and so they massage the movies with the patented “Diehard” or “Terminator” Plot-O-Matics. Heck they even argued about how many minutes Denzel should have his beard on in “Man on Fire”.

    All these factors make it difficult to put a coherent movie together, much less a highly entertaining one. Can anyone blame the public from staying away? If I’m looking for creativity on movies I seem to be getting more of it from Korea than anywhere else.

  • Part of it, I think, is the death of the Glamor Age. Stars once seemed bigger than life, like the movies. They were exciting, and people flocked to see them and their films. (Of course, people used to see a LOT more movies, too; especially adults).

    Now we expect our stars to be repulsive creeps, and as such, the bar of what constitutes a ‘star’ (or in modern parlance, a celebrity) has fallen to the point where Paris Hilton is arguably as well known as a Denzel Washington.

    And in an age of special effects driven movies, the concept and characters are always going to trump who’s in the film. The constantly changing stars of the James Bond series really was an indication of things to come.

  • fish eye no miko

    @P Stroud: You make it sound like politics only just started creeping into movies, and that’s just not true. There were anti-(Vietnam) War movies in the 70’s, and anti-commie movies in the 50’s. Just because you might suddenly find yourself disagreeing with the politics doesn’t mean it’s new.

    “Look at the stream of ‘relevant’ movies that depicted US Troops as a bunch of psychotics in Iraq.”

    I actually can’t think of any. Care to name a few?

  • Capt. Nemo

    Where would Adam Sandler fit in this?

    I haven\’t kept up with his career. But he\’s the only other name that comes to mind when I think of \”name\” stars.

  • Dave

    Fisheye, I agree with your point. But Redacted and In the Valley of Elah come to mind.

  • Mr. Rational

    I would go further than Ken does and posit that there really is not, and never has been, such thing as a “movie star”…at least not according to the definition of “person whose name guarantees a big opening to a picture.” I say instead that the concept is, and always has been, the only thing that REALLY drew people into the theaters.

    Oh, sure, we had big names in lights in the Golden Days. But how were those stars marketed? When people said, “I wanna go see the latest John Wayne picture,” were they going to see John Wayne? Or were they going to see the CHARACTER that John Wayne played, with some minor variation, in all his movies — strong, heroic, square-jawed, and iconically American? I argue for the latter, and further argue that the natural confusion between character and actor is what gave rise to the concept of “star makes success” in the first place.

    Think about it. Back in the days of big box office names, major actors played the same type of roles more often than they do now. When you paid your money to see Clark Gable or Katharine Hepburn or Gregory Peck or Barbara Stanwyck, you knew what type of movie you were sitting down for more often than not. Stars became stars because their major character appealed to movie audiences.

    Moreover, with only a very few exceptions, stars became stars because their major roles were sympathetic. Audiences cared about them, wanted them to succeed in their quests. Even fairly major actors who took most roles outside this box were not stars, not in the sense Ken is talking about.

    Case in point: Errol Flynn was a movie star. Jimmy Stewart was a movie star. Humphrey Bogart was a movie star. BUT — name the actor who played major roles in major films with each of the three above names, films that made a ton of money at the box office and today are heralded as classics, yet is NOT a star despite being an integral part of the story and a great screen presence. Now why is that? Quick follow-up: name ONE film, universally recognized as classic, in which that actor played the lead and was an unambiguous hero. You can’t do it, can you? THAT’S why he’s not a star.

    Simply put, an old-time movie star was an actor or actress who played sympathetic lead roles with great frequency. Last question: Do we have any of those today? We did, and fairly recently. Tom Hanks built the backbone of his career on playing such characters. With one major exception (My best Friend’s Wedding), every single hit Julia Roberts had was like this. Jim Carrey did pretty well with this model for a while.

    But who do we have now? Really, what actor or actress consistently fits that description? Will Smith. Matt Damon and Johnny Depp and Russell Crowe, sometimes. Maybe Adam Sandler. Christian Bale looked like one for a second there. Sadly, I can’t think of any actresses to shine with them off the top of my head, except for maybe Cameron Diaz and Nicole Kidman, somewhat intermittently. Amy Adams and Ellen Page may get there yet. Anne Hathaway, too, if she stays away from Oscar-bait roles like “Rachel Getting Married.” And I still feature Zac Efron as a career-long light romantic lead, if he plays his cards right.

    Who else? Even with a couple more names on top, that’s pretty slim pickings, nothing compared to the star-studded rosters of the past, with names like Tracy and Colbert and Poitier and Loy. No, instead we have big names trying to take roles against type, or roles that are “gritty” and “realistic” — which generally means unsympathetic to a degree. And it is to that degree that they hurt themselves and their careers.

    Well, that’s my take on it, anyway. And it may be long, and it may be a bit simplistic, but it certainly makes more sense than the idea that “Tom Cruise + $60 million = GOLD!” (Speaking of, look at Cruise’s biggest roles, his best films. Don’t most of them fall into this camp too?)

  • Lions for Lambs, Rendition, Redacted, In the Valley of Elah, Stop-Loss, American Dreamz, The Lucky Ones, Grace is Gone, Home of the Brave, Divergence…

    Adam Sandler was a star, if he stuck again to fairly inexpensive films. I’d say he’s a pretty reliable bet on a film with a $50 million to $60 million budget. I wouldn’t budget a Sandler film higher than that, though.

  • fish eye no miko

    Ken Begg said: Lions for Lambs, Rendition, Redacted, In the Valley of Elah, Stop-Loss, American Dreamz, The Lucky Ones, Grace is Gone, Home of the Brave, Divergence…

    And every single one of those portrays U.S. soldiers as a “bunch of psychotics”? Even Stop-Loss which, from what I know about it, seems sympathetic to them (“Lt. John Doe served his duty, can he go home now?”). And isn’t Rendition about the War on Terror, dealing with events elsewhere? I don’t recall any stories of the U.S. “rendering” anyone from Iraq (nor would soldiers have been involved in that, anyway).

  • I’m not saying they all showed military guys to be psychos, but they were all uniformly negative about the war and only had sympathy towards soldiers in the sense that they considered them dupes and victims.

    Stop-Lose is one of the worst of the bunch, laughably so: “…and because Hollywood supports the troops, all three veterans are portrayed as damaged and dangerous goods. Tommy’s a self-destructive alcoholic, Steve beats his girlfriend and sleeps in a foxhole drunkenly dug in his front yard , and King (besides the whole desertion thing) melodramatically loses it whenever the script’s run out of ideas to move the plot.”

  • Aussiesmurf

    Firstly, I agree in a way with the poster who said that ‘movie stars’ were really stars when they starred in movies that were in their wheelhouse. A few examples (in recent decades) :

    Sylvester Stallone : Although he faded in the mid-90s and after, all his hits were action-adventure oriented : Rocky (althoug the first couple had dramatic aspects), Rambo, Cliffhanger, Tango & Cash and so forth. His attempts at comedy (Rhinestone, Stop Or My mom will shoot, Oscar) failed dismally.

    Burt Reynolds is another star – great in driving movies with trucks, not so great elsewhere.

    About the only main stars who really succeeded in a number of genres would include :

    Schwarzenegger – Successfully went from action to comedy.

    Will Smith – I second Ken’s comments.

    Cruise – A bit of a joke now, but had hits with comedy (Risky Business), Drama (Rain Man), Action (Top Gun), Arty (Interview with the Vampire), ‘Issue’ movie (Born on the Fourth of July) and so on.

    Tom Hanks – From Big / Turner and Hooch to Cast Away to Saving Private Ryan, showed real ability to get hits in many genres.

    People who I would say were really only successful in one genre, and got burned in other ones, would also include Meg Ryan.

    And re : Nicole Kidman – I have never seen someone get paid as much money, and have so many starring roles, with such a history of box-office duds. This is a lady that was in many, many movies that lost serious amount of cash, including : The Peacemaker, Days of Thunder, Cold Mountain, The Invasion, Dogville, Birthday Girl, The Stepford Wives, Bewitched, Portrait of a Lady.

    Even her ‘hits’ were comparatively modest in a money-making sense : Moulin Rouge, The Hours, The Others.

    About her only big smash was Batman Foreer, where she was a supporting player at best.

    And about ‘issue’ movies faring badly when they are ‘anti-war’ – I haven’t seen any of the movies cited, but simply say that I consider the problem with many of those films is that they are over-budgeted. If you want to make a serious, ‘message’ movie, you’re crazy spending 60-80 million on it and expecting to get your money back. I would say, speaking for myself, that I thought Three Kings was a magnificent film.

  • joliet jake blues

    Keanu Reaves as a movie star? Perhaps not though. For each Bill and Ted there is a My Own Private Idaho.

  • BeckoningChasm

    Their star has fallen considerably, but I would say Bruce Willis and Harrison Ford were stars that could bring people into a theatre.

    Julia Roberts had a couple of big successes early on, but after her Oscar win, not so much.

    I think one of the reasons that stars seem to be on the wane is that, nowadays, there really is NO compelling reason to rush out to the theatre. If you’re patient, you rent it in your own home in six months time. Ken, you and I are both old enough to remember the pre-tape days, when if you wanted to see a film, you saw it NOW. You wouldn’t have the opportunity six months down the road–even then, it would be chopped up for television. If you were lucky and the film was a hit, it might get re-released, or someone in a revival house might book it.

    Now, there’s no reason to risk seeing the new Will Farrell or Eddie Murphy movie, when you can rent one of their older films that you know you’ll enjoy.

  • Pip

    Good job Ken and Dave. Of course, it was just answering Fisheye for the Straight Guy, so it’s not like you were up against the varsity squad, but still…

  • fish eye no miko

    I think BeckoningChasm has a good point. Fewer people are willing to spending the $10-$20 bucks (if you get food and drinks there) on a lot of films when they can wait a few months and rent them for a few bucks (and get cheaper snacks at the local Safeway).
    Plus, there’s more entertainment choices. Heck, one of my fandoms is on YouTube (the “Abridged” series people do for various animated shows–Screw the rules, I have money!).

  • fish eye no miko

    Pip said: “Good job Ken and Dave. Of course, it was just answering Fisheye for the Straight Guy, so it’s not like you were up against the varsity squad, but still…”

    Well, except Dave agrees with me, and only mentioned two films (hardly a “stream”); and Ken didn’t address my actual point (being “negative about the war” is not the same as “depict[ing] US Troops as a bunch of psychotics in Iraq”), but aside from that, yeah, good job, guys!

  • P Stroud

    I’m admittedly touchy on the subject because I did a tour in Nam and later was subjected to the media blitz of “Vietnam Vets are all crazy” BS during the 70s. “Platoon” still rankles me and the plethora of “Platoon was so realistic” reviews just make me chuckle. But my point was that the movies’ first job is to entertain and I detect a greater tendency towards preachiness in the flicks than in years past.

    And the actors too frequently get up on their high horses and try to give morality lectures to the country between their divorces and trips to the rehab center. It’s no wonder why there is no star power any more. Who in their right mind would look up to actors?

  • Me

    A lot of times when a movie is mentioned, the first thing someone will ask is “who’s in it?”

    David Poland has written well about who’s a “movie star” and who isn’t. It isn’t about the final numbers for the movie, it’s about the opening. And putting Travolta in a role is automatically going to pre-sell rights in other countries and get lots of press, while casting Joe Blow won’t.

  • Well, I didn’t make the claim that there were a stream of movie showing soldiers to be psychos, so I guess I don’t feel I have to back it up…although Stop-Loss clearly falls squarely into that territory. And probably some of the others do, too.

    However, there were a stream of films (and TV episodes, like Joe Dante’s infamous Zombie Soldiers program) coming out in a very short period portraying soldiers as hapless, near illiterate victims of the Bush War Machine. Hollywood’s whole “the only people who sign up for the military are kill-crazy racist psychos and poor ignorant people who have no other choice and are victims”–Hollywood’s idea of “supporting the troops”–attitude is perhaps more insulting than the crazy vet thing.

    I forgot to put Jarhead on the list, but I remember it opened much bigger than anyone thought it would before tumbling even more than you’d expect. I always thought that was because the ad campaign was deceptive and made it look like a pro-military film. The commercials featured lines like “Every day I thank God for the Marine Corps” (paraphrasing). Then people went and it was yet another Platoon-lite, and the word of mouth spread, and the box office plummeted.

  • “A lot of times when a movie is mentioned, the first thing someone will ask is “who’s in it?”

    Certainly far less than before. Few went to see Iron Man or Dark Knight or Transformers because of the stars. Yes, having a bit of a name doesn’t hurt by any means. But none of these were star-driven. People either want to see those movies or they don’t (Terminator Salvation).

    “It isn’t about the final numbers for the movie, it’s about the opening. And putting Travolta in a role is automatically going to pre-sell rights in other countries and get lots of press, while casting Joe Blow won’t.”

    Exactly, which is why I wrote “In traditional parlance, however, it is somebody whose name in the case guarantees (or close to it) a strong opening weekend.” Travolta doesn’t do that. And the fact that Travolta’s name helps sell the film overseas isn’t the kind of things that would get most people to call him a movie star.

    Again, the real mark of a movie star? His name is attached to a movie, and without even any other details, any studio head would greenlight the movie. (Somewhat exaggerated, but not much.) Travolta is not a guy who’s name gets movies greenlit just by itself. Nobody’s is, except Smith’s.

  • Terrahawk

    I think Cruise might be one as well. Valkyrie did better than expected if I remember correctly. Although I think both, with Cruise in the lead, are about to the point where they won’t pull in people just based on them being in it.

    Actually, how about Clint Eastwood? Gran Torino did well with him billed as the lead. Of course I think that leads back to the point someone made above, typecasting works to make stars. People went to see GT because it had Eastwood in a typical Eastwood role.

  • Again, the ultimate test I’m using here is “would a picture starring this person get a nearly automatic greenlight regardless of side issues”. Twenty years ago there were a host of guys like that: Ford, Gibson, Julia Roberts, Hanks, Cruise…it’s a pretty exclusive club these days.

    Eastwood gets films made because he has NEVER spent more than he had too. Indeed, he’s never once gone over budget or over schedule, nor asked for more money than he needed to prove he was a big shot. Gran Torino had a $33 million budget.

  • BT

    sigh. Another “Hollywood hates the troops” thread.

    I wasn’t going to get involved, but Ken I think you were right the first time about “Jarhead”. I haven’t seen it, but virtually EVERY review I read about the movie points out the exact same thing. The ads were completely deceptive. Not in the way you are stating though. The ads depict the movie as an action filled war film. The actual movie seems to be a meditation on the dullness of waiting for something to happen in war. People went expecting “Saving Private Ryan”, and ended up seeing guys sitting around bored out of their skulls. That was the word of mouth I heard when the movie came out as well (rightly or wrongly). So I think the people that disliked it, disliked it more than they would have, had they known what they were in for.

    I liken it to the ads for “The Ice Harvest” a few years ago. What I expected was John Cusack and Billy Bob Thornton in a light hearted comedy. What I got was a film noir, with occasional humor thrown in.

  • BT — How about we’re both right. The trailers might well have made the film seem more action packed than it was. However, the tv ads did include lines like (exact quote): “I love this job, I thank God for every day he gives me in the Corps.” The punch line of the TV commercials was Jamie Fox yelling “Ooh-rah!” Tell me that doesn’t promise a vastly different film than the one delivered.

    Why did they do that? Because they knew an honest commercial for the film would have doomed it to the bomb status achieved by every other Iraq film then coming out, including the several with what are currently considered big ‘star’ casts. And it worked; pretty much uniquely among the scad of Iraq movies, Jarhead had a good opening weekend before word of the reality of the film got out.

    The real solution, of course, would have been for Hollywood to make a film that actually corresponded to what this film promised but didn’t deliver: A forthright, pro-America war picture. However, I honestly think the action thing was the lesser issue: How about a film showing our brave men and women rebuilding wells and hospitals and protecting voters and otherwise helping to build up a democratic Iraq. I think that might have been a bit more successful than the films they instead cranked out.

    And while I think labeling this a “Hollywood hates the troops threads” overstates things a bit, given the wide range of topics covered in these messages, Hollywood could always alleviate complaints like that by making honestly pro-troop movies. How about even one in which most of the troops support their mission (as the overwhelming majority of troops in Iraq did, as evidenced by their reenlistment rates and voting records) and did the job with the amazing skill and bravery they did in fact show. The all volunteer military is a vastly different institution from the Vietnam era draft one, but you sure wouldn’t know it from the movies made about this war.

  • BT

    I guess I can’t argue with you Ken, because I didn’t see the movie. Was it anti-war? If that is the case, doesn’t the problem lie, not with Hollywood, but with Anthony Swofford? I mean, it’s supposed to be a story of what he did in the war, right?

    I think you are overselling America’s ideological leanings. While I am sure that there were some people who were turned off by the movie being anti-war, my guess is that there were far more turned off by the fact it bored them.

    We’ve had variations of this discussion before, so I’ll try not to overly repeat myself, but I know I liked the first Rambo movie, not because he had a speech in which he claimed the politicians lost Vietnam, but because he blew a bunch of stuff up real good. I’m fairly certain John Millius and I would not have much to discuss when it comes to politics, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t watch “Red Dawn” every time it came on TV. And it doesn’t get too much farther to the right than the opening setup to that movie (the pansies in Europe leave the US holding the bag while the Russkies invade with their buddies through our unprotected borders), but that is wholly beside the point when the Wolverines blow up some tanks or gun down some potential rapists.

    I think the percentage of the audience that makes decisions about what they want to see based on ideology is pretty small, compared to the people that decide what they want to see based on content.

  • I don’t think the problem is that the movie was anti-war, but that it certainly wasn’t pro-military. My impression (from reading quite a few reviews at the time) is that it didn’t remotely comport to the impression given by the TV commercials. How about a movie about the majority of soldiers, Marines and sailors who are incredibly proud of being in the military and proud of their work and mission over in Iraq? How about making the movie that you’d actually expect to see after watching a commercial (run quite a lot) in which the biggest star in the picture says, “I love this job, I thank God for every day he gives me in the Corps.”

    And if you’re not going to make that film, at least don’t pretend you did.

    I understand what you’re saying, but Rambo and Red Dawn aren’t war movies. War movies are things like The Great Escape or Patton or The Longest Day or Blackhawk Down. I guess what I want (and what millions of ticket buyers would have loved to see) is an Iraq war film along the lines of Mel Gibson’s We Were Soldiers. Not a movie that evades the horrors of war, but one that celebrates the best and bravest America has to offer, the young men and women in our military.

    And again, if Hollywood refuses to make movies like that, then don’t mock up ads to make films like Jarhead look like one.

    I note again that this thread is not primarily about war movies, but since people like, well, you yourself want to post on that topic, feel free. I’ve never tried to limit what people want to talk about on this site. But you could also address the actual matter the post itself was about, especially if you find the soldier issue tired ground.

  • Joe11

    I know I’m continuing the War Movie Conversation, but this new movie The Hurt Locker looks like a “We Were Soldiers” type film about our soldiers who disarm mines, roadside bombs, & IED’s (etc.) in Iraq. I hope they don’t pull a “Jarhead” on us in this one.

  • Yes, now that the war’s effectively over (and won), and that Obama is president and thus Hollywood doesn’t have to worry about helping Bush, we actually might start seeing some more balanced Iraq films. I hope that’s true.

  • Rock Baker

    I wouldn’t be too sure. I mean I HOPE we start seeing more balanced war flicks, but I’m not too optomistic. Even after all these months, there’s still an almost violent hatred from the far left for Bush and everything he was involved in, the war being, if not THE main one, A main one. And time and time again, Red Hollywood has put ideology ahead of common sense. “The Passion Of The Christ” made tons and tons of money, but it was pro-God, so the financial ‘brains’ failed to understand how profitible it would’ve been to unleash a dozen more biblical epics in Mel Gibson’s wake, despite that fact that such films certainly seemed they would’ve been no-risk, sure-fire hits that year.

    There’s many a good point on display here. The public doesn’t seem to care for anti-troop movies if box office is anything to go by. But I notice the pro-troop, pro-America, and-its-funny-too “An American Carol” crashed on take-off as well. I guess the main item here would seem to be that ticket-buyers don’t want ANY side taken? I’m not sure I can believe that, I’ve certainly been spooked away from movies flying an obvious anti-American flag, or an anti-troop flag, or an anti-values flag, or a pro-commie flag, etc.

  • Ericb

    I’d say that it’s difficult to make a good film on a war that is still ongoing. Since the politics will be ripe there will be a tendency for films made during a conflict to vere towards propaganda either for or against and propaganda usually makes for bad art.

  • Terrahawk

    I think Cruise still fits that criteria as well as Eastwood (although as you point out with Eastwood he does everything else as well). I guess the problem I’m having with your criteria is that it implicitly seems to be based on the film budget. Are we saying someone is a star if they are mainly in $100+ mil. blockbusters and are the reason for the opening weekend?

  • Definitely agree that the idea of the “movie star” as a guarantee box office draw is on the wane. However, even when some correlation existed between a particular “star” and box office success, I do believe that Hollywood’s measure of that correlation has been exaggerated for quite some time, at least based on the salaries that they have traditionally paid. For the most part, I think it has always been more about the movie making the star rather than the star making the movie.

  • tbyrne@berryfamlaw.com.au

    I have observed this thread since my comment (seems like a long time ago..) and I will be upfront before I say anything :

    (1) I am not from the United States (Australian).
    (2) I was and am completely opposed to the invasion of Iraq.

    Having said that, I still don’t think that ideology plays a huge part in movie-going attitudes. And I mean that either way. Ht emovies that are ‘ideological’ usually success by waying the things that are truly uncontroversial :

    “War takes its toll on the people who fight it”
    “Despite the horrors of war, some things are well worth fighting for”
    “Politicians back home do not sacrifice as much as the troops in the front line”.

    Would anyone seriously disagree with any of the above.

    I would challenge any commenter in this thread to nominate a seriously financially successful movie, with war as its topic, that maintained any ideological point which was at variance with a majority of the audience.

    In terms of making ‘anti-troop’ and ‘anti-American’ movies, I maintain that the studios can make whatever movies they like, and if no-one goes to see them, and they take a financial bath, then they have no-one to blame but themselves.

    I’ll be honest and think the concept of anti-[whatever country you are from] is over-played and has lost any meaning. People tend to think that an anti-American film is one which deviates from their own preferred moral code – ie. American is best represented by what they believe. President Bush is American. President Clinton is American. is a movie reflecting Bush’s point of view anti-American? What about Clinton’s point of view?

    [Semi-political rant]

    The United States is not special. They are a country like many others, with things to recommend about them, and things worthy of criticism. Films, like anything else, will praise what the creator sees and praise-worthy and criticise the opposite. If enough people find what the film has to say persuasive, then the film will find popularity and be profitable.

    Let me put it this way. Bowling for Columbine was far more left-wing than (say) Lions for Lambs, yet it made approximately twice as much money on aroudn the tenth of the budget. Surely part of this can be placed at the door of the entertainment quality of the movies, rather than the politicial leanings?

  • BT

    I’m currently reading the book “Fiasco” about the biggest flops in Hollywood history, and it points out that very few “stars” were immune to flops. I mean, in my opinion, Tom Hanks is a star. I think there are people who will take a chance on a movie simply because he is in it. Does that mean every movie he makes is automatic gold? No, of course not. For every “Castaway”, you might have a “Charlie Wilson’s War”. But for the most part, he elevates virtually everything he touches to a higher level.

    Ben Stiller is a star. Now maybe he can’t star in the next remake of “On the Waterfront”, but if you are making a comedy, Ben Stiller is pretty freaking reliable. Did he make “The Heartbreak Kid”? Yes, but almost everything else he made was huge. And again, I think people might go see a movie because he is in it.

    If the definition of star is “never makes an unprofitable movie”, then there are no stars. But if the definition of star is someone who will put butts in the seat that otherwise wouldn’t be there, Stiller and Hanks at the very least, are stars.

  • “If the definition of star is “never makes an unprofitable movie”, then there are no stars.”

    Well, obviously. You’d have to be an ass to define stardom that way. I can’t imagine that anyone ever has.

  • Rock Baker

    Basically it all boils down to what Ken has been saying for some time, that there is no mass market anymore. Naturally there are no stars of the James Cagney variety anymore because audiences don’t collectively flock to a star like they did when Cagney was king. There are too many alternatives today for an evening’s entertainment. Your choice used to be book, radio, or movie. Now you can go out to a movie, or stay in for one, read a book, listen to a book, look at television, play on your computer, and on and on and on. If Cagney were in his prime today, could even he rally ticket-buyers in a way that would make him a ‘STAR’? Its not the actors (well, yes, I guess it sort of is, really) as much as it is the audience. (okay, both are to blame) Dennis Miller suggested a while back that Hollywood should bring back B pictures, and thus make more money with minimal investments that actually play to what the potential audiences would like to see. The root of the problem may have more to do with enormous budgets and attempted ‘bluckbusters’ than the talent involved. Then add in the fact that times are tough and movie tickets cost so much more than they used to, any you’re looking at a dead horse being beaten with broken tentpoles. (that analogy DID make sense when I thought of it)

  • Ericb

    Speaking of Iraq War films has anybody seen or heard about this?:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hurt_Locker

  • Petoht

    re: The Hurt Locker

    Depends on who’s review you read. It’s either the best Iraq war movie made yet and utterly non-political, or further left-wing screed painting the troops as insane adrenalin junkies.

    re: Movie stars

    One could argue that George Clooney is a movie star in the old school style, and that he lives and acts like a movie star from the good ole’ days. At least when he’s not being a smarmy bastard.