Marvel Studios vs. Warners….

I saw Guardians of the Galaxy this weekend, and spent the entire movie giggling with pure joy. I so seldom get that from movies now that I literally see only three to four new pictures a year. Sometimes you want something more dour or intellectual or a bit slice of life. Generally, though, I want to be entertained, and to leave the theater having had a great time. Marvel Studios films that do that, again and again and again.

They, especially their chief executive Kevin Feige, knows that in the long run taking chances is that safest route. This year alone, they released not only their most serious (yet still extremely fun) movie, but followed it with the closest thing they have made to an outright comedy. And both films were fantastic, among the very best of their efforts so far. Indeed, I’d say the best, barring The Avengers.

They’ve made 10 films in total. When solid if unspectacular films like The Incredible Hulk* and Iron Man 2 stand as the worst of them, you’re doing something right. Their success is so complete that I think you can only compare them to Pixar at its height. They have been mind-bogglingly successful at building a shared universe, sketched in and illuminated by endless little moments that they don’t push in your face; SHIELD agents wondering if the Destroyer in Thor is “one of Stark’s,” Bruce Banner reaction upon meeting Captain America, the legend whose existence inadvertently destroyed his life, etc.

[*The Hulk is a difficult character to hang a film on. At best he’s like Godzilla; you can only have him smashing stuff for so much of a movie before boredom sets in. Therefore the secret is to make the rest of the film work too, rather than make the audience feel like they are treading water until they get to the good part. One obvious technique would be center the film on the bad guys, ala the Batman movies. However, the Hulk just doesn’t have that good of a rogue’s gallery.

The other essential ingredient is a more relatable Bruce Banner. Marvel’s got a better chance now, if they want to try it again, because Mark Ruffalo’s Bruce Banner is more entertaining than Ed Norton’s or Eric Bana’s was. Ruffalo’s Banner is just as cursed, but has a pretty funny gallows sense of humor, which is necessary to cut the gloom. Indeed, I would be entirely happy if Marvel just made a road trip buddy movie with Ruffalo’s Banner and Robert Downey Jr.’s Tony Stark. That would be fab, if impossible to imagine coming to be.]

Then I look at Warners’ strategy for their DC Comics films, and how they want to (they think) play it safe by making every one of them as grim as Nolan’s uberpopular Batman movies. I just can’t help thinking this is a disaster in the making. People are come out of Marvel movies exhilarated. They leave Warners’ movies unsatisfied, at least those people actually buy tickets for. See Green Lantern or Jonah Hex. Or rather don’t. Why should you be the only one?

Man of Steel made money, a lot of money. Not crazy The Avengers money, but a very nice amount. But how many ticket buyers really liked it, much less loved it? The fact that Batman and Superman—and to a far less degree, Wonder Woman—is in the next one will put butts in seats again. So they are already nearly assured of another success, for at least one more movie.

What if, however, that film proves as unsatisfactory as the super grim Man of Steel? (Pa frickin’ Kent suggesting to a young Clark that he should have let his classmates die!) At that point they will have a far harder time getting people to see a Justice League movie. Even a ten or twenty percent drop-off in ticket sales could be disastrous.

And a Justice League movie will cost a fortune; Man of Steel itself cost $225 million, which is a tad more than Marvel spent on their big mega team-up film, The Avengers. Also, Warners’ will have blown their wad by using the Big Three in this precursor film. What’s the inducement the next time? “Oh, but now we added Cyborg and Aquaman.”

Joel Schumacher once made a Batman movie. Riding on the coattails of Tim Burton’s movies, it made a lot of money. Seeing that, the studio ordered up another film just like it; ignoring the fact that nobody liked the film. The subsequent movie tanked so badly it brought down the entire franchise.

If you’re going to make a grim superhero movie, it better be a masterpiece like The Dark Knight. And for God’s sake, know your characters. Few people go to see a Superman movie to watch as hundreds of thousands of people are thrown miles into the air and then plummet to horrible deaths.

Captain America has always been Marvels’ Superman, the moral center of their respective universes. (And I would argue, Cap is a better fulfillment of this, because he doesn’t have anywhere near Superman’s level of power. Indeed, traditional Cap is a Batman-level athlete, not even having the low level of superpowers he has in the movies.) Warners keeps insisting that modern audiences won’t accept such an earnest, corny hero, or, for that matter, one who forthrightly champions the American way.

Warners: Please see Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

Then there’s the fact that if you’re intending to put all your characters together in a movie, maybe they should, I don’t know, have different personalities that contrast with and illuminate one another. Hell, if you’re making your Superman all emo and stuff, make your Batman more jolly. But a glum, violent Batman and a glum, violent Superman and a glum, violent Wonder Woman…boy, there’s a recipe for success.

Captain America has a sense of humor, and can issue a quip with the best of them. In essence, though, he’s a serious (not glum, serious) individual, a man born and awakened from a world of polio and the Depression and World War II. He’s self-aware and doesn’t take himself too seriously, but he takes the world and his responsibilities seriously.

Tony Stark tries to take his responsibilities seriously too. However, his sense of irony is itself a suit of armor. When Cap asks Stark what he is without the armor, Starks quips “a billionaire genius playboy philanthropist?” And although he’s right, none of that makes him a man. “Put on the suit,” Cap responds, challenging him.  

Tony Stark would never try to take on Cap; he’d be woefully overmatched. And he knows that Cap will never attack someone who can’t put up a fair fight. That’s why Stark dicks with him. (Well, that and Tony’s daddy issues.) Cap, however, will take on Iron Man, and never doubt that he can beat him. You can see Stark pause as that realization sinks in. In sum, that’s the difference between the two.

That’s probably my favorite moment in all the Marvel Studios movies, by the way. But then, I’m a Cap guy. Always have been.

So if Tony is trying to be a better man, then Cap is a role model by example, even if Stark sometimes resents it. Cap is the guy who makes all the people around him better, by being better himself. Not because it’s easy for him, but because easy has nothing to do with right and wrong.

That’s who Superman is supposed to be. That’s not who this Superman is.  This is a gritty, ‘realistic’ character full of rage and fear and doubt, a character who stood by as his own father died when he could have saved him. A character, we’re told, made ‘relatable’ by dint of these flaws. Who wants that? Who is he inspiring? Who is this Superman making a better person by example?

Marvel will eventually have a misfire; it’s inevitable. When they do, they will get past it through the vast reservoir of good will they’ve generated with all their previous films. Warners, however, has no such reservoir. Christopher Nolan’s Batman movies are a discrete entity from what they’re making now, nobody connects them. And they are, in fact, Christopher Nolan’s Batman movies. They aren’t Warners’ films, in the sense that Marvel’s movies are the studio’s.

I might prove wrong, but I really don’t think so.

  • Flangepart

    There are the hopeful people, and those with little or no hope. Cap is one of the former…Supes? Not any more…

  • Eric Hinkle


    What if, however, that film proves as unsatisfactory as the super grim Man of Steel? (Pa frickin’ Kent suggesting to a young Clark that he should have let his classmates die!)”

    The heck? Seriously? That doesn’t sound like ANY version of Pa Kent I’m familiar with!

  • Marsden

    Ken, when I saw the title, I thought you were going to talk about Warner flinching a year and half early and moving their movie away from the date Cap 3 is coming out. Great article. I sometimes have to almost convince myself we finally got 2 Cap movies and an Avengers movie that good. I like them all, but Cap’s always been my favorite, it’s about time he got a good shake. And about Avengers, not only did we get the whole overall movie, we got so many showdowns! In one movie we got, Thor vs. Hulk, Thor vs. Iron Man, Black Widow vs. Hawkeye, Black Widow vs. Hulk, Loki vs. Shield, Cap vs. Loki, Iron Man vs. Loki, Thor vs. Loki, and then Hulk vs. Loki. Then there was the Chitari and their big monsters. Could you even imagine that 10 years ago? It was incredible, and Dem Comics is gambling on Batpest vs. Superham to bail them out of limbo. Ha. Right.

  • Petoht

    In some ways, WB is acting like the college film student. Trying to be super serious and significant, and largely producing unwatchable nonsense that nobody cares about.

    Meanwhile, Marvel is more like the kid behind Axe Cop. “And then Axe Cop met a TALKING RACCOON… FROM SPACE!”

  • The Rev.

    And then an evil giant robot appeared and hit the raccoon, and some of his blood splashed on Axe Cop, who became Raxecoon Cop and beat the robot with his secret poison axe/raccoon eye laser attack that only affects evil giant robots.

    *sigh* Axe Cop is one of those ideas I wish I’d thought of. “I’m going to illustrate whatever crazy nonsense this little kid dreams up whilst playing with his toys.”

    One of my favorite things ever in a movie is the “Rock and Roll Martian” scene from Merlin’s Shop of Mystical Wonders, because it is such an unmistakable kid moment. No adult would ever think that way (although if one did actually script that, then massive kudos to them), and it is just such a wonderfully off-the-wall scene that makes me laugh every time I see it. Axe Cop is full of moments like that, both the comic and the animated series, and as an added bonus it hits that “one damn thing after another” pattern that I seem to love so much in my entertainment. My personal favorite is where Axe Cop’s ancestor Book Cop uses a secret attack to summon a fire wave that envelops the Earth…one that only burns bad guys. The highlight is the description of how he summons it, and is a perfect example of what I’m talking about. An adult would probably have said he crossed and uncrossed his arms. The cartoon describes it as X-ing and un-X-ing his arms…which is not only exactly how a kid would describe it, but also lets you immediately picture what he’s doing. It’s perfect, and that episode was quoted a lot in the household for a while because we all laughed ourselves to tears during it.

    Short version: I love Axe Cop a whole lot.

  • Toby Clark

    Green Lantern was not that bad. The scene where Carol recognises Hal through his mask is, I’d argue, one of the funniest in superhero movie history.

  • Toby Clark

    To put it context:

    Clark: I just wanted to help.
    Jonathan: I know you did, but we talked about this. Right? Right? We talked about this! You have…!
    [calms himself]
    Jonathan: Clark, you have to keep this side of yourself a secret.
    Clark: What was I supposed to do? Just let them die?
    Jonathan: (long pause) Maybe. There’s more at stake here than our lives or the lives of those around us. When the world… When the world finds out what you can do, it’s gonna change everything; our… our beliefs, our notions of what it means to be human… everything. You saw how Pete’s mom reacted, right? She was scared, Clark.
    Clark: Why?
    Jonathan: People are afraid of what they don’t understand.

    Yeah, while I liked the movie overall, and I’m still reasonably optimistic about Dawn of Justice, I’m not really a fan of that moment either.

  • Acethepug

    No, that’s pretty much the New52, the company-wide almost reboot done almost three years ago (Batman and Green Lantern kept a lot of their continuity, most others didn’t). This Superman is very much an alien, apart from humans without the real warmth most people remember him having both pre- and post-Crisis on Infinite Earths (now waaay back in 1986, I remember reading the first and IMHO best of the reboots).

    To be perfectly honest, the new52 reminds me of nothing so much as the grim and gritty 90’s and early 2000’s (which is when Jim Lee, now a bigwig at DC, was doing that very thing as a co-founder of Image Comics).

    Yes, this version of Pa Kent subscribes to a more “modern” (read, not very optimistic) view, that someone with Clark’s powers would be hated and feared, instead of looked at as a protector …

    Don’t care for it, and clearly many people didn’t. No idea why DC/Warner doesn’t see it, either.

  • Acethepug

    Ken, great post. I will say there is one thing I am leery of — rumor has it Cap 3 will replace Evans — much as has happened in the comics earlier when Bucky took over, and now again as Falcon is taking the identity.

    As much as I loathed Evans as the Human Torch, he really nails Cap (as do you with your analysis), so not sure how this will work.

    Again, great post. Always great to see your takes on the superheros.

  • Ericb

    I know that this website is largely about playfully snarking bad films but you should write more articles about good films that you like. They are a joy to read even if my interest in the films themselves is limited.

  • Ken_Begg

    Yes, I definitely could have mentioned that. On paper, even given the success of CA2, Batman vs. Superman would seem a more likely hit, more of an “event.”

    But Marvel could, if they had to, take a torpedo. Warners can’t. BvS *has* to be a huge hit. Warners is down or just about a number of their big franchises; Harry Potter, The Hobbit/LotRs, etc. They *need* this. I think that’s why they moved. They have what appears to be a Lego franchise going, and maybe the next Godzilla movie will up its game a level at the box office (that would be nice), but they will be in a much better position if their comic book movies become a powerhouse.

  • Gamera977

    Didn’t see ‘MoS’ but have recently read though a couple of internet discussions of the movie. I want Superman in bright red, blue, and gold not muted greys and black. I like him as the ‘big, blue, boy scout!’
    Does he even say: ‘Truth, Justice, and the American Way’ anymore???

  • Ken_Begg

    I would think RDJr. would be the logical one to go first. He’s making a LOT of money ($60m reportedly for The Avengers, including his cut of the film).

    HOWEVER, I think they are introducing new characters like the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver (and maybe the Vision?) in the next Avengers movie to create replacement characters for when actors start to price themselves out. Marvel doesn’t want to start spending $250m to make their movies. So far they’ve stuck pretty hard to that $150-175 range, which is comparatively economical by today’s standards. Rising costs is one of the signal dangers of film franchises.

    I would think Evans is safe for Cap3 because he’s signed for six movies. I would imagine Marvel is planning on him doing three Cap movies and three Avengers movies. At that point they will either have moved on to new franchises, or have to start casting new actors. That would be touch, but doable. If they survive replacing Downey, than they can recast anyone.

  • Ken_Begg

    I see so few films, though!

  • Flangepart

    Yeah. I can see that. My ‘spider sense’ tingles at most pics. And with the cost of tickets, and louts in the seats, I just wait for the DvD to come out. And then I try to ‘choose wisely.’

  • Acethepug

    I do not believe he has lately, too “jingoistic.”

    As for the new costume, I THINK that is part of the fallout of the lawsuit with Siegel and Shuster. The costume was changed to avoid royalties, and it’s also the (rumored) reason that the Superboy shorts were not put on the Adventures of Superman (animated) DVDs — which is a shame because I remember those fondly.

  • Acethepug

    You could well be right, I just thought there was a changing of the shield coming soon. And you are also right that RDJ is far more expensive — but he IS Iron Man, and also probably the strongest reason Marvel has a movie franchise now.

    I wonder if, in a few years, we will be reading one of your articles describing how Marvel squandered their movie tentpole projects much as DC did with the Superman Reeve movies :)

    I’d hate to see Marvel kill their golden goose (at least, by doing so stupidly and not simply because superhero movies will oversaturate the market), but the resulting articles would be great, I wager!

    Thanks,

  • Ken_Begg

    Studios keep arguing that foreign audiences–the only thing prolonging the life of the current system, since DVD monies started drying up–will not accept a forthright American hero.

    Yet Michael Bay’s Transformers films, whatever their other sins, are extremely pro-American military, and those are massively popular around the world. And Cap 2 made a ton overseas, so…..

  • Ken_Begg

    I think that will only happen via audience fatigue with superheroes generally–all of the other studios making awful movies will eventually have an effect–or if Disney gives in to the impulse to start mucking around with Marvel.

    In they end, they will have to change actors for the same reason James Bond does; the old one ages himself out of the part. The superheroes are the stars, not the actors. RDJf is the closest thing to untouchable, but close isn’t entirely there. Obviously someone else will play Iron Man someday, whether it’s five, ten or twenty years from now.

  • Ken_Begg

    Yes, I go to one of my rare movies now, and watching the endless stream of trailers, and I’m just, “No…no…no…no……”

  • Gamera977

    I can see the point but still it just seems odd to me with ‘Captain America’ for example, if you hate the US why would you go see a movie called ‘Captain America’ in any situation???
    Taking the USA out of Superman seems like taking the UK out of James Bond or Japan out of Godzilla.

  • Acethepug

    I agree, but this is what I keep hearing. Remember the “truth, justice, all that other stuff” from the Superman Returns movie?

    So angry that they did that.

    Although, despite the very mixed message, the Direct to Video “Superman versus the Elite” is taken from a comic story “Whatever Happened to Truth, Justice, and the American Way.” The character models are a bit ugly, and as I said, the story message is a bit mixed, but it very clearly makes a stand between Superman and the heroes that kill that became popular later.

  • Ericb

    I’d figure that as long as the hero refrains from long commentaries on a particular foreign policy issue that some foreign audiences might object to most non-American audiences have no problem with an American superhero. As long as they keep with the Truth, Justice and Freedom issues most people in the world wouldn’t have much to object to.

  • Ericb

    Of course who knows what kind of dialogue the dubbers are giving the characters.

  • Ken_Begg

    Well, he’s still a guy wearing an American flag.

  • Ericb

    Of course many of us grew up with Japanese monsters and Japanese heroes a mere 25 years after World War 2.

  • rtpoeman

    Or, as I’ve been musing to myself lately:

    Warner/DC is targeting the adults: “You know those superheroes you liked as a kid? Well, they’ve grown up, too!”

    Disney/Marvel is targeting the kids *inside* the adults: “You know those superheroes you liked as a kid? Well, here they are again!”

    The latter is the better long-term strategy, since there always will be new kids coming along to discover the awesome coolness of a Captain America (for example). But the continually dark and brooding Superman isn’t doing much to attract the next generation of fans.

  • Ericb

    Also “dark and brooding” can come across as downright scary when a character has the capacity to destroy the world. Imagine what a drunk and angry Superman on week long bender might do? Is there really a cinematic future in something like that?

  • Toby Clark

    Like having him research shows like Sherlock and Skippy The Bush Kangaroo instead of I Love Lucy. Oh, wait…

  • Gamera977

    Guess I’m not the typical movie-goer but frankly I’m happy to watch a movie where the Japanese, Aussies, Brits, Canadians, whoever save the world. To me when Toho stuck American characters into their movies they seemed an annoying distraction- I don’t care who the heroes are as long as the movie is good!

  • Gamera977

    Just saw ‘GotG’ last night, yes it’s two hours or so of just sheer FUN! Why couldn’t the gawdawful Star Wars and Trek pre-sequels be even 10% as good as this movie!?!

  • Ken_Begg

    What it comes down to is that many in Hollywood, including a lot of the suits, don’t really like championing America that much. The idea (often disproved) that foreign audiences won’t accept forthrightly American heroes or favorable views of the American military is just cover.

  • Ken_Begg

    It’s really great, isn’t it. And that tonal shift in the first two scenes! Wow, to pull that off. (Please, no details. I don’t like even tonal spoilers for those who haven’t seen the film yet.

    I’ll probably see it again this weekend. I saw Cap 2 three times.

  • Beckoning Chasm

    I think the Hulk’s main difficulty as a movie character is that, for superhero movies (and fantasy movies in general) there’s a lot of “wish-fulfillment” to them. “I sure wish I was as smart, resourceful and rich as Iron Man or Batman!” or “I wish I could fly like Superman, or talk to fish like Aquaman!”

    The Hulk doesn’t really get that sort of thing, because he’s, well, pretty dim. No one wants to be dim. There’s also the fact that, whereas most superheros want to fight against injustice, Hulk’s fondest wish is to be left alone.

    That said, he was great in the Avengers movie. I think that’s really his best option–to be part of a greater ensemble.

  • Ken_Begg

    Hmm, ironically he might work best as a fantasy character for little kids, since he’s the biggest, strongest guy who nobody can boss around.

  • Luke Blanchard

    Spider-Man isn’t a cynical or dark hero either, and the Sam Raimi films did very well.

  • Ken_Begg

    No, Spider-Man is not, but Peter Parker is the original hard luck case, always worrying about money and his aged aunt and carrying the guilt of his uncle’s death. (Even Batman wasn’t *responsible* for his parents’ deaths.) And he was the first superhero to have his (long-term) girlfriend killed.

    And I wouldn’t call the Raimi films anywhere near as dark as the Nolan Batmans. Easily the best, Spider-Man II, featured Peter risking his life to bring Doc Oct back to sanity, a very optimistic act on his part.